HD stop trying to make out that the Israelis are the innocent lambs in this whole affair...

Why did Israel have to provoke an attack on their commandos in the first place?...

Why didn't they wait till it was daylight before boarding the ships?.....

Why did they have to board the ships in the first place?, as the Israelis have enough naval ships to make their own blockade.....

If the Israelis where correct in all that they have done over the last few years then why are they now letting in more trucks filled with aid?......though some of the aid they are now letting in or more the point they denied the Palestinains is rather confusing...

"Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted."

*not_secure_link*www.ccun.org/Opini...hips Fall Where They May By Alan Sabrosky.htm

 

No what you actually see is your own preconceived arguments and brainwashed snippets without realizing what I'm actually saying. Which is: One, in my opinion and the opinion of many others George Bush was not very intelligent. In fact, to be very critical, dumb as a box of rocks.

Do you deny that?

And I'm not only well aware of the complexities involved here and the underlying tensions and odd and clandestine diplomatic channels that exist between Israel and the rest of the world actually.

And I really think the reason my post or even me seems simplistic to you is because you haven't bothered to read this tread before commenting on it.

But let me at this point ask you one simple question. In your opinion did Benjamin Netanyahu fuck up or not by sending a member of his cabinet to meet secretly with Turkey without notifying the Foreign Ministry first.

Do you have any idea about the structure and separations of powers in Israel's government?

Obviously you didn't really look at it. What you were saying was how complex the issues and negotiations are between Israel and their Arab neighbors and I was simply illustrating to you I not only know how complex and I would say devious those negotiations are I know, that's its been the result of Israel's Sacred Terrorism to expand their borders.

So when you know that and realize it one cannot really support Israel for resorting to terrorism, war crimes, massacres, assassinations, murders and persecution against the Palestinians and then condemn Palestinians or even Militant Jihadists for resorting to what obviously worked against them.

Israel has actually been an unrestrained bully for more than 60 years which has helped create mane of the problems we have today. You know, the problems people are dying over and I do mean on this day.

And personally I don't think the US should support a bully at our expense any more. I think the US should withdraw all aid and support from Israel until a peaceful two state solution is reached with the Palestinians, Israel returns to their original borders, and returns to their legal capitol in Tel Avi.

Hey if that's the case no problem. But if that's the case what's Israel's problem with cooperating with and independent international investigation?

I mean if Israel's telling the truth and got nothing to hide then an independent investigation would clear them wouldn't it? And ya know I can think of about three or more investigations in the past that were actually conducted by independent international groups which found Israel suspected of war crimes. But you know funny thing. Israel's own investigations don't hardly ever find anything wrong with what they did.

Maybe you could help me there. I've forgotten. Why wasn't it a war crime to drop cluster bombs on civilian populations or us white phosphorous and uranium shells on civilains?

All I can remember is the rest of the world thought it was.

 

I am not a big fan of George W. Bush and I did not vote for him when he first ran for president. However I am very puzzled when I hear people refer to him as a: Jerk, Idiot, Moron, Dumb-ass or dumb as a box of rocks.

I would imagine that these opinions are basted more on their opposition to Bush’s policies then his actual mental capacity.

For the benefit of those people that don’t really know much about Mr. Bush, I have prepared a brief resume outlining his career and raise to power. If you really stop and think about it, the man is quite accomplished and it is no surprise to me that his IQ was determined to be 125, placing him in the 95th percentile of the population for intelligence. That doesn't make him the most intelligent president we've ever had but it probably makes him a lot more intelligent than most of his critics.

RESUME OF GEORGE W. BUSH:

George W. Bush born July 6, 1946, served as 43rd U.S. President from 2001 to 2009

Yale University 1964 to 1968, graduating with a Bachelor of Arts degree in history. He was a member of Delta Kappa Epsilon, and became the fraternity's president during his senior year.

In May 1968, Bush was commissioned into the Texas Air National Guard. He was trained as a pilot flying the multi-million dollar supersonic jet fighter known as the ConvairF-102 Delta Dagger. After his six year service obligation, he was honorably discharged on November 21, 1974.

Harvard Business School in 1975 he earned an MBA. He is the only U.S. President to have earned an MBA.

In 1977, George W. Bush headed a group of investors and created Arbusto Energy. In 1984, his company merged with the larger Spectrum 7, and Bush became chairman and CEO. In 1989 the company was hurt by a decline in oil prices, and was bought by Harken Energy for $2.2 million; but Bush was retained to serve on the board of directors.

In 1989 Bush headed a group of investors that bought the Texas Rangers baseball team for $89 million. Though he only owned one percent of the team, with an invested $500,000, he was chosen to serve as the Rangers' managing general partner. In 1998 the team was sold for $250 million. The sale of Bush's shares brought him over $15 million.

In 1994, Bush was Elected Governor of Texas, and in 1998, Bush won re-election with a record 69% of the vote. He became the first governor in Texas history to be elected to two consecutive four-year terms.

In 2000, Bush was elected President of the United States, beating his Democratic rival, incumbent Vice President Al Gore. Bush won 30 of the 50 states with a total of 271 electoral votes. Gore won 20 states plus the city of Washington DC for a total of 266 electoral votes. Although Bush won the electoral vote and 60% of the states, he lost the popular vote by ½ of one percent.

The Florida Recount: Bush’s victory in Florida was so slim that under state law a mandatory machine recount was required. After the recount, Bush’s margin of victory increased to over 900 votes. Al Gore was dissatisfied with the machine recount and request manual recounts. As provided under Florida state law, the hand recount was allowed, but only until November 14, which was the statutory deadline for amended returns. When the deadline was not met by several counties, the Democratic Party sued asking the Florida Supreme Court to extend the deadline to November 26, which was the deadline for Florida to certify a winner. Several Counties failed to meet the extended deadline and on November 26, the state canvassing board certified Bush the winner of Florida's electors.

Al Gore formally contested the certified results of November 26 and the Florida Supreme Court ordered still another recount. The Republican party brought the matter before the Supreme Court and that Court declared the Florida Supreme Court's ruling unconstitutional and ordered that the previously certified total should hold.

The final tally: It is interesting to note that after the election an independent recount was conducted by The Miami Herald and USA Today newspaper. After the recount, the study reported that if the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court had been allowed to continue, George W. Bush would have widened his victory to a 1,665-vote margin.

Time magazine named George W. Bush as its Person of the Year for 2000[1] and 2004,[2] citing him as the most influential person during these two years.

In 2004, Bush was re-elected winning against Democratic Senator John Kerry. In the election, Bush carried 31 of 50 states, receiving a total of 286 electoral votes. He won an absolute majority of the popular vote (50.7% to his opponent's 48.3%).

Intellectual capacity:
Though no official "IQ" test score for Bush has been found, the score he received on his SAT during his final year of prep school at the exclusive Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts is known. He scored 1206, which has been correlated to an I.Q. of 120. The score that Bush received on his qualifying test for the military suggests that his IQ was in the mid 120's, placing him in the 95th percentile of the population for intelligence.[20] An article published in the journal Political Psychology, estimated Bush's IQ at 125.
-------------------------

I'm not going to argue with you about G.W. Bush's policies and legislative agenda, but whatever you think of him as a president, calling him "dumb as a box of rocks" puts into question your objectivity and capacity to judge.

Please don't try to beat me up over my posting of Mr. Bush's resume. I don't need the abuse. Those are the facts. If you don't think he behaved in a logical way, then you have to look elsewhere to determine the cause. And, remember that Congress gave him their approval and support. If things happened you didn't like, it was more then Mr. Bush's doing.

I'll get to your other questions in another post.

HD

 

You're confusing people who go to college and learn something to people who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and have their life already prepaid.

And I will retain and stand by my opinion that President George W Bush and Benjamin Netanyahu are mental midgets in the political world, prone to acting out of ideological blindness, and just plain dumb enough to fuck up repeatedly in front of the whole world.

I also contend that another of Netanyahu's problem is he and the old hardliner Zionists are still trying to apply the same tactics and principles today that worked 20 or 30 years ago and the world has changed beyond their comprehension.

Its kind of like watching re-runs in Three D. Examples of assassination, murder, terrorism, and persecution that Israel commits are seen much clearer now and the world is finding the sight disgusting enough to make them want to do something about it.

And because of that Israel will be stopped, and a two state solution implemented whether Israel likes it or not.

 

Um, no. The interviewed stated that they had started some four hours ahead of when the Israelis showed up. He had saw them start, went and took a nap, then got up later when the shooting started.

And this I have to ask. How, how do the Israelis kill two sleeping people before boarding the ship? What, the guys were working on their tans on the forecastle?

Paintballs, actually, or some sticky form thereof. The problem I keep coming back to is that this was, essentially, an isolated incident amongst the flotilla. Of the six(?) ships that got boarded and stopped, only one had any outbreak of fighting. According to Grig the Israelis opened fire, killing two people before they boarded the ship. These are, I'm assuming, the same two people who were killed by, "Close range head shots, almost execution style". (Either that or the casualty count has effectively just doubled from what everyone has reported.) Then, while the Israelis were busy hosing down the decks with live ammo, the Turks started pulling up ship rails and chains to fight off the Israelis. At which point they managed to beat the crap out of two Israelis soldiers, drag them below decks, give them medical attention, and then hand them back. Again, all according to statements made by Grig. There is, of course, no photo or video of this because the evil Israelis stole it all. (Except now there are?)

Then there's the Israeli story, which basically says they boarded with paint balls, ran into resistance, then open fired with live ammo. There's at least one member of the flotilla who confirms the Turks spent several hours preparing for the assault on the ship. There are videos which confirm this chain of events.

So, facts. Several people took ships against a naval blockade. 5 of the ships surrendered peacefully. The sixth didn't, and people got killed. According to the Israelis, it was a legit fire fight. According to the other side, it was a massacre. The Israelis have a consistent story. The other side keeps changing its details to make the Israelis look more and more monstrous, and with details that outright make no sense.

Any wonder why I don't trust Grig and co.?

 

You seem to be under the impression that a two state solution is a new thing and that it has been the Israelis that have been opposed to that solution. That is far from the truth. It is the Palestinians that oppose the two state solution.

At the end of world war one, the British took over most of the middle east and under their Mandate, they suggested a two state solution to settle the fighting that was going on between the Arabs and the Jews, but the Palestinian Arabs opposed it and staged several revolts against the British to keep them from implementing their solution. After world war two, the UN passed a resolution and in 1948 they established the two state solution by creating the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. The Arab Palestinians promptly rejected that solution and attacked the new state of Israel. They lost that war and some of their land.

From the establishment of the State of Israel until 1967, there were various Arab attacks and wars to try and destroy the new state of Israel. All ended in defeat for the Arab Palestinians and more lost of land. At the end of 1967, the United Nations passed Security Council Resolution 242, again offering a two state solution. Israel accepted but the PLO rejected the proposal and prepared for more wars against Israel.

It wasn't until 1974, after the Yom Kippur war that the PLO finally called for a two state solution but not under UN Resolution 242. They wanted Israel to accept the original territorial borders called for under the British Mandate of 1920. These borders made Israel even smaller than under the UN Mandate and Israel rejected the proposal and the conflict continued.

It wasn't until 1993 that the PLO finally accepted UN Resolution 242. In 1995 the PLO and Israel signed agreements to establish the two state solution but the PLO demanded territorial concessions and the right of Palestinians to return to their homes in Israel. This was totally unacceptable to Israel because it meant that the Palestinian population would out number Israelis within the State of Israel thereby turning Israel into a Palestinian state.

That ended all progress towards a two state solution and ever since that time, the PLO has waged an Intifada against Israel. Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israel put an end to any more talks and the terrorist attacks led to Israel occupying Palestinian lands to establish a buffer zone between the terrorist and the State of Israel. This further damaged the possibility of a two state solution.

since June 2007 Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories and continues it's fight against Israel. The European Union, Israel, Japan, Canada,and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization that is not looking for peace with Israel but the destruction of the Jewish state.

Considering the above history, your claim that it is Israel that has been an obstacle to peace and the establishment of a two state solution just doesn't make any sense.

HD

 

The entire situation made me sick to my dam stomach. Unless a eastern nation with formidable military power disrupts the actions of Israel, Israel will soon emerge as one of the most efficient military powers in history (if not already). I know one thing, the United States will not be the nation to interfere.

 

Israel

Israel has already emerged as one of the most efficient military powers in history. :excited::excited:

The United States will certainly not be the nation to interfere. We take pride in that wonderful country. :excited::excited:

*not_secure_link*www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw9bAvMpiE0&feature=related

*not_secure_link*www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm3d1cS0zU0&feature=fvw

 

No see this is the carefully crafted and perpetually maintained myth that Israel has used successfully even before their creation.

Here's the real Israel, in the words of one of Israel's founders and first Prime Minsters. The personal diary of Moshe Sharett. 1 Head of the Jewish Agency's Political Department from 1933 to 1948, Sharett became Israel's first foreign minister ( 1948 1956), under David Ben Gurion), and was prime minister in 1954 and 1955.

*not_secure_link*chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html

This is Israel's sacred terrorism and the proof that those supporting the creation Israel lied to the world when they said they would live within the borders created for them. And immediately upon their creation the GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL embarked on a program of terrorism, war crimes, assassination, murder, persecution and deceit to drive the Palestinians out of Israel and expand Israel's borders including illegally occupying Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza.

That is why Israel has deliberately refused to negotiate in good faith and constantly sabotaged all peace efforts up to and including funding Hamas to try and betray Yasser Arafat and divide the Palestinians. Which worked and gave Israel a new "threat" to their existence. A threat Israel helped fund and strengthen, for the sole purpose of blocking a peaceful settlement.

 

I don't know how to answer your last paragraph. You ignore the half century of wars and terrorist attacks the pro Palestinian Arabs have wagged against Israel. You also ignore their many refusals to accept a two state solution and instead accuse Israel of sabotaging a peaceful solution by funding HAMAS to continue the conflict. That's a very interesting argument but one that has no credibility outside of the most extreme and insane pro Palestinian groups.

I don't mind having a debate with you about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but I insist we stay within the realm of reality. I can't respond to wild, unproven accusations or conspiracy theories based on myth and wishful thinking. Please do some research and get back to me with hard facts, not other peoples opinions, that support your argument.

HD

 

Fewer insults would be nice, too.

 

No not at all. If you'd bothered to even read this thread you'd know that I also traced the use of terrorism on the part of the Palestinians which I think may have become the best terrorists in the world.

What you refuse to accept or even acknowledge is that the Palestinians were taught how well terrorism works by the Israeli Government which used terrorism, war crimes, massacres, assassinations, murder and persecution to drive the Palestinians out of the state of Israel after it was created.

Israel provoked their Arab neighbors into war and had actually planned to to that since Israel's creation in 1948.

That's the real truth. Not the sanitized version of events which was promoted to the west by Israel.

That would be fine with me but I really think we need to actually define and document that reality. Let me ask you a few questions to establish were we are.

Are you saying the government of Israel never used terrorism, murder, and war crimes to drive the Palestinians out of Israel?

Are you saying government of Israel never refused peaceful settlements with their Arab Neighbors?

Are you saying the government of Israel never intended to provoke war with their Arab neighbors knowing in advance their military superiority supplied by the US would not easily Prevail?

If you'll just answer those questions for me I'll provide the necessary documentation.

I've got the facts and I've presented them to you. So you tell me what is wrong with the source? What false claims and wishful thinking are presented?

If you really want to discuss this in a sincere way you need to answer those questions instead of just offering a blanket rejection with nothing more than your own preconceived conclusions and cherished notions.

What accusations do you say are unproven and what kind of proof do you need?

 

No the recorded history you presented is the exact carefully crafted, constructed and executed myth that Israel has perpetuated for more than 60 years while they used terrorism, massacres, assassinations, murders and persecution to drive the Palestinians out of Israel after Israel was created and in direct contradiction to what Israel had promised to do before the UN Mandate.

Those are the historical facts. And actually if you know what you're talking about it can't be denied.

*not_secure_link*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre

*not_secure_link*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

*not_secure_link*www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=32057

*not_secure_link*chss.montclair.edu...#CHAPTER 9 Disperse the Palestinian Refugees ....





Not pretty stuff but facts backed up with documentation.

​

 

History actually only shows the end result. The Diaries of Moshe Sharett prove that to be false.

*not_secure_link*chss.montclair.edu...#CHAPTER 9 Disperse the Palestinian Refugees ....

​

 

This comes from the 1948 war.

​

*not_secure_link*chss.montclair.edu...#CHAPTER 9 Disperse the Palestinian Refugees ....

 

HD, there have not been any wars waged against Israel. Israel has started and waged many wars against its neighbors. Read the expert on the era, Jewish Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, particularly his The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Very well referenced. Re refusals to accept a two-state solution, the solution in each case presented by Israel would split Palestinian land up into separate cantons surrounded by Israelis, and Israel doesn't want them to have an army. They have wisely refused. Hamas would happily go for the Arab peace initiative. It has stated that many times. Also, check back in your history. Hamas was started up with the aid of Israel, who hoped they would get rid of Fatah. It wasn't how it turned out.

 

-----------------------------------------
The answer to your questions is that yes, the Israelis have been involved in attacks on Palestinians that can be considered atrocities, but they were made in response to Palestinian attacks that were also atrocities.

Now, I'd like to turn this around and ask if you deny that:

1) the Arab/Palestinians have committed atrocities and human rights violations against Israel?

2) Do you deny that the Arab/Palestinians began the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

3) The Arab/Palestinians are the ones who have kept this war going because they refused to accept the two state solution.

HD

 

The Jews returned to the land of their ancestors in peace. They did not "take" land from the Palestinians. They bought it and developed it. They were attacked. They fought back and won. They had no need to initiate the use of violence, because they have always been able to out compete the Arabs peacefully.

 

HEY! I just noticed this. I guess my dirty little secret is out. I frequently ignore the garbage you write HD - particularly if it involves quoting other people with colors instead of quote boxes. Quote boxes are there for a reason. I don't have a clue what your colors even signify.

Anywho - Colin Renfrew was writing about languages, not races. There's no such things as a Caucazoid, a Mongloid, or a Negroid.

Repeat after me: Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. Note, "race" is not there. :lol: Race is an artificial social construct. Kinda like language, which, again, is what Colin Renfrew was writing about.

Michigan's constitution has been amended so many times, the state has lost count. It requires a couple hundred thousand signatures to get a constitutional amendment on the ballot. Yes, Michigan formed a new constitution in 1963. No, today's constitution is not identical (or even that similar) to the 1963 text.

Quit cyber-stalking me, faggot.

 

Sub species and race are subordinate to species, and equivalent. Anyone who denies the obvious differences in average ability levels, personalty, and character between the different human races is delusional. Anyone who maintains that these differences are entirely environmental is indulging in wishful thinking.